The Insider’s Guide: surviving economic abuse
9 / 5 / 25
46 min
And if at any time you want support, you can go to areyouok.org.nz or call the 24/7 Are You OK helpline on 0800 456 450. Those details and other contacts are also in the show notes for this episode.
Experiencing family violence or partner violence can leave us feeling isolated and alone. It can mess with our minds and even make us feel crazy. We often blame ourselves for what's happening, and it can make us feel like there's no way to turn.
Throughout this series, you'll hear firsthand stories of people who have experienced family violence, and the reason these courageous people are sharing these stories is because they want people who are experiencing family violence to know that they are not alone, that they are not crazy, that it's not their fault, and that helpful support is available.
I'd like you to meet Nadia, and I've just asked her when she met the man who would become her husband.
Nadia: Oh, golly. Very young. Very, very young. 14.
Mick (VO): Nadia is a survivor of economic abuse. Her ex-husband racked up over $1 million worth of debt, then left and dumped it on her. But before we get to that, here's Nadia talking about what originally drew her and her ex-husband together.
Nadia: We got along really well. We enjoyed the same music, all that kind of stuff. You know, that typical young love kind of thing. And. Yeah, and then you kind of step into the, the older generation where you’re purchasing properties or you're getting into business or you kind of blink and it's 27 years down the track, you've got the white picket fence and the four kids and…
Mick: And what were the first couple of years like as a couple?
Nadia: They were great in the beginning, particularly compared to what, you know, our friends’ relationships look like. And we moved to New Zealand together and that, that was great. I had fallen pregnant a couple of weeks before we moved, so it was a case of, okay, wow, now we've got a child on the way. So we decided, well, we'll get into the viticulture industry.
And of course, that entitled purchasing of tractors and all sorts of machinery.
Mick: and a vineyard?
Nadia: No, at that stage were working on family vineyards. And then accumulating clients and things like that. And it seemed all so exciting and all wonderful. And even our bank manager had said to us, you know, this is the way to go. This is where you’ll make money in this industry, in this area.
Mick: And what was your role in the industry?
Nadia: So, I was a director of the company. We were 50/50 shareholders.
Mick: And what did the company do?
Nadia: And so basically serviced all the vineyards around the region, from harvesting to spraying, leaf plucking, trimming, mowing. So basically just any machinery that kind of runs through the vineyard. We started off very small and then the business grew and as the business grew, it needed to- you needed to purchase more equipment to service those clients.
By that stage that we had grown that big, I had had two children by then, and obviously my dedication towards that business and what was going on behind the scenes and the price of the machinery and all of that kind of stuff was a bit of a blur because I really wasn't involved that heavily. I was putting invoices out to clients and maybe chasing clients for payments, but in terms of understanding the debt levels that were- that was being accumulated, the tractors that were being purchased, it was just a case that things would show up in the paddocks. It would be - this is going to make us this much money. And I kind of went, okay, that's fine, because, you know, that's my husband and I trust him.
And so all of the equipment that was being purchased, a lot of it I had no idea about. So I'd find out that we were in debt for another $80,000 for another piece of machinery that would literally come through the mail. At that stage, I started to notice that my signature was on all of these documentations that I had never seen.
And that's when it started to get quite scary for me because of the level of debt that was now being accumulated. So at that point, when the business was looking like it was going under, well, he basically walked away from the business.
Mick: So the business wasn't making enough money to be able to purchase machines of that value?
Nadia: No. No. Nowhere near. So there was a lot of forgery that was going- that was going on behind the scenes. And there was a lot of finance companies that really shouldn't have financed what they did with my ex-husband without any signatures from two directors on the paper at all. I think a lot of us think, well, if you're getting lent the money, you must look pretty good on paper, right?
I mean, that sounds so naïve, now, when I say that in my own head, because I should have known exactly what was going on. We had made an agreement to, at one point, that the business wasn't making any money, and that maybe we should sell it and get rid of it. And I had gone away and come back, and a $250,000 machine had been purchased.
That was a major red flag, obviously, that, but in essence, I was, well, this is my husband. I completely trust him. He knows the business more than me. And I think it was probably at that point that I started to put my head in the sand and kind of think, well, he's got this. He can take care of it.
And not realising the kind of implications that that could cause me later on, to not be fully aware of what's going on financially. By the time we'd, you know, been doing that for a long time, there was an awful lot of equipment. I think there was about $1 million worth of equipment. And my ex-husband just gave up and went back to Australia and doing kind of fly in/fly out.
That's when you know that we had repo men kind of coming in and taking machinery, and the business was completely going under and getting threatened that the house was going to get sold and things like that. And for me, it was a very big eye opener to - you don't really know what's going on. You are in huge financial debt that the banks had to put onto my home and against my home.
Luckily for me, I did have a career that I could slowly step back into and start ramping back up to ensure that my children keep a house over their head. Because ultimately, that's what you do it for, right? Is your kids. And when you've got four hungry mouths to feed…
Mick: Did he just walk away?
Nadia: So from the business, he just walked away and he decided to go and do his old job back in Australia.
And we were in the negative close to $900,000. Luckily, we'd been paying 3 or 4 times over the mortgage repayments, so the bank was able to actually lump all of that business debt that was left over on my home. So it became my mortgage. What I didn't realise at the time was that there was other machinery that had been purchased and other vehicles, that then we started to get chased by more debt collectors.
And at this stage, then the BNZ helped us out and took those loans and consolidated them. And then we had two mortgages, which was one was business and one was the house. So, all I could think was about $1.2 million that we owed. So we were completely maxed out on our house, and all of our lending capacity at that point.
Mick: And what's going on relationally for the two of you at this point?
Nadia: Quite bad. So, infidelity was definitely involved. So, and…
Mick: His, I'm guessing?
Nadia: Yes. Yeah. At that stage, he…I knew I knew the dollar figure that I had to make to save my kids’ home because I knew what was happening. So. Yeah. And it was a really rough four years because obviously fly in/fly out, so you're not really seeing each other. There's no love there at all. And so I had a plan of, okay, once I make this certain figure so that I can continue to pay the house mortgage on my own, then I can deal with the cheating and the, and the infidelity.
So you’re trapped right. And once I once I hit that figure, that's when we split and he left and got on the last aircraft before they shut the borders to Australia. With lockdown. At that stage, it became quite scary because, he just left. He completely left. And we managed to track him down to finalise the divorce that they managed to do over zoom, which was great because I needed to then take the house and actually get him off the title.
During that process we found out that he was trying to buy more machinery against the house. And at that point, I had pulled myself out of the business so that I wasn't a director so that I could try and protect myself from any other debts that he was trying to get into. But of course, his name at that point was still on the title of the house, so he could use the house as collateral for other lending.
So it was a case of me going through emails and emailing financial institutions and telling them not to loan against the business, and that this is what was going on. So we we managed to get divorced and in the divorce papers - and a lot of people don't realise this - but what your divorce papers say and what your financial institutions will do are two completely different things.
So, even though the divorce papers had stated that I would take the majority of the loans, which was the mortgage for the house, and he would take the business loan. To any banking institute, if one of those parties does not pay what they have agreed to pay, you are liable. That is your debt. That is 100% your debt.
Mick: Even post-divorce?
Nadia: Even if it's in your divorce papers. So, we didn't really hear from him for two years, except we managed to track him down through friends and family to just get the divorce proceedings sorted. Because in my head I thought, once we're divorced, once it’s on paper, once it says that the house is mine and I'm taking on the debt of the house, that it would stop.
And he had the one loan with the BNZ bank, and I had the other, and he just wouldn't pay. He just refused to pay. At that stage the BNZ were amazing. They could see what was going on. They could see there was two different mortgages and one was getting paid every month and one wasn't.
They had reached out to him, he was ‘I don't care, I don't care’ all the rest of it. Trying to force me to sell the house.
Mick: So sell the house so that his debt could be wiped..?
Nadia: His debt could be wiped and that the kids and I wouldn't have anywhere to live. At this stage, and obviously, I'm still working full time and taking care of four kids.
I was getting debt collectors, knocking on my door or calling me at least two to three times a week. I had one institution, threaten me that they were going to bring bailiffs around and take my furniture, and these were for debts I didn't even know existed. He abandoned his car. They said I was a guarantor on the loan, which I never signed.
It was an anecdote that had come through an email in my email address that he had obviously clicked on or got into and then signed on my behalf. So they were threatening to come and take my family vehicle away because we didn't know where his vehicle was. It was really bad. There was some institutions that were amazing and there were others that was absolutely deplorable with the way that I was treated.
Luckily, at this stage, the BNZ had noticed something was going on and their support team called me and said, are you okay? Like we can see, we've got it on file, that you guys are divorced, like, is everything okay? And I obviously burst out crying and straight away they put me with the specialised support team for financial abuse, and then they got me in contact with Good Shepherd, and they were an absolute godsend.
I'm a recovered anorexic, but anybody that knows anorexia, it never kind of goes away. So at this stage I was weighing about 40kg and I was not very well. And yeah, they came in and just took the burden off.
Mick (VO): As you're hearing from Nadia, an organisation called Good Shepherd NZ stepped in to help her when everything had become totally overwhelming.
Good Shepherd work with predominantly women and girls who are experiencing harm or hardship, helping them take steps towards being safe, strong, well, and connected. I sat down with Beryl, who manages the Family Violence and Economic Harm service at Good Shepherd and has worked with hundreds of survivors of economic abuse.
Beryl: We work around family violence, economic abuse to help with the financial parts of family violence. We have some loans that have no interest and no fees that can help people around their basic household items, cars, things like that.
Part of the support we do provide is working with bank hardship teams. We also make sure people are able to access their entitlements through Work and Income. We work closely with Victim Support who also have grants and things available, and just help people to understand their entitlement through the Employment Act, so the ten days’ leave if they need time to go and deal with their situation.
Mick: So today we're obviously talking about economic abuse. What is economic abuse?
Beryl: So economic abuse is a form of family violence. So it's defined in the Family Violence Act under psychological abuse. And it's explained as behaviour towards a person that restricts or controls their access to finances or resources within a relationship.
It also can involve manipulation and coercion and, threats and elements of fear.
Mick: And can you describe a couple of quite typical scenarios that people find themselves in when they're victims of economic abuse?
Beryl: So often when people come to us, they either have debts they didn't know they had, they had debts maybe that they had been coerced into or signed or joint debts where their partner was going to pay too and haven’t, or they find that they have their credit rating impacted and are struggling to be able to get into housing, get power in their homes, or kind of meet their basic needs because of the financial demand from the debts.
Mick: And how does economic abuse unfold in a relationship?
Beryl: So it's one of those things, like other forms of family violence, where it slowly seeps its way and people are kind of chipped away at until they find these things happening. So for example, when you go into a relationship, one partner might say, you know, I'll look after the finances so you don't have to worry about it. But then what it becomes is kind of a controlling thing, where the other person doesn't really get a voice in the finances or decisions are made without them, or they're having to kind of answer for their spending.
Mick: And, and who does it happen to, economic abuse?
Beryl: It can happen to anybody. It's not a respecter of gender or socioeconomic situation or anything. So yeah. Anybody.
Mick: And what- what kind of emotional state are people often in when it gets to the point that they need your help?
Beryl: It's kind of a range, I guess, because these sort of things don't happen in isolation. Often they've experienced other forms of family violence as well, and the health has been impacted, and they're having to navigate things for their children and just meet basic needs. So sometimes they come, they’re quite heightened, sometimes they're in a little bit of shock or surprise when debt collectors have come to the door, they often don't know that economic abuse is a thing.
They think they may have experienced family violence, and then they've got this money problem, and so often they're quite grateful just to find out that actually economic abuse is a real thing, and it is a part of family violence, and it isn't something that they have caused themselves.
Mick: Let's go back to Nadia now, who at this point in her story is still very much in need of Good Shepherd's help.
Nadia: Because I was literally getting letters or emails or phone calls every day from everything from parking fines, speeding tickets, car loans, Gem Visa accounts that I didn't know about.
Mick: And what's that like for you, when it's coming at you from every angle?
Nadia: Oh, it- it was horrific, and I didn't know how to get help. I didn't even know that financial abuse was a thing. I knew what was happening to me was so wrong, and it was so unfair.
And how could somebody just get all that debt and just walk away and leave one person to deal with it, like the ethics alone in a man doing that to his family was quite outrageous. But how nobody cared, like so many of the financial institutions, they just didn't care. They basically would say, you're married, it's your debt. If it's your asset, it's also your debt, which you- and everyone talks about relationship property. And then they go, well it’s 50/50. So is your debt. And if the other person doesn't want to pay their 50/50, it's 100% yours.
I didn't know that. If you don't pay that, they will take everything off you until and then even when they sell it all, whatever's left that you still owe after selling all your stuff, your house, your cars, your machinery, whatever it is, whatever's left, you still have to pay that.
Mick: And at this point, he's kind of, in a way, hiding out in Australia, is he?
Nadia: Hugely. Yeah. So for two years and then, finally came back, which was nice for the children’s sake, because at the end of the day that’s their, dad, that was a very difficult thing to not be that person, because that's my kid's dad. I've done a very good job of that. I'm surprised. I do have a bottom lip and I haven't bitten it off, but I've done a very good job of that.
Yeah. It was, I mean, it was only last year that he still wasn't paying his portion of the debt and the BNZ couldn't do anything. So, they worked with me to remortgage and also take on that debt.
Mick: His?
Nadia: Yep. So I took on the entire amount. Even up until last week I was- I got a debt collection notice for his vehicle come through, which they're not supposed to be contacting me. This one particular group that Good Shepherd worked tirelessly with to get my name off- off the vehicle that he owns.
Mick: I can't imagine that just the sheer weight of debt of that magnitude must be…
Nadia: It, for a single mum of four kids, it's horrific. It's been absolutely horrific. If it wasn't for the BNZ coming in when they did and getting me the support that I got, I don't even know if I'd still be alive. It was, it was every single day of every single moment. And the other spin off is your credit rating is ruined. So, you know, you're a successful businesswoman now at this stage because you've had to click back into your career, which you're giving up an awful lot of time with your kids.
You know, sporting events, all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, luckily, my dad does live with me, so he kind of steps in and, and be’s like my ‘manny’ to take care of so I can feed my kids. But it's your credit rating’s stuffed. So, you know, something as simple as a washing machine. My washing machine broke, you know, four kids, no washing machine.
And I couldn't even get a- I couldn't get a store credit card for $300 to get a washing machine. And so you had to get- one of my friends had to give me a washing machine and that and it's, it's that shame and that embarrassment, you’re treading water like you wouldn't believe. And from the outside everybody's going, oh, but you know, you've got a nice house and you've got- not realising that I've actually got a really expensive rental from the bank right now that my kids have got a roof over their heads.
Because what's the alternative? If you sell it and get rid of it, you've you still got no money to start again. You walk away with nothing, so you just keep treading water. So the- once I'd had the conversation with the BNZ, they gave me a- an email address and a phone number of Good Shepherd, and they suggested I get in contact with them immediately because I needed more support.
I had Hope from Good Shepherd, call me and it was…
Mick: Hope is a person?
Nadia: Yes, I know, and what a beautiful name for what she does. It just felt like I was being heard and that there was someone there that could actually help me. Straight away, she wanted all the names, email addresses of all the people that have been contacting me in terms of the debt collection, a lot of them, she had them, you know, let them know exactly what was going on in my situation and that it wasn't my debt.
And there was a lot of people that she was able to work with. The likes of Bay Corp and things like that and say, look, this is not her debt, and get my name removed off the finance thing of it. At one point, I think Hope was calling me about every second day to check that I was okay, my mental health was okay, if I needed any more support, and just being a voice of of reason that she could see me. She could understand what I was going through and that what was happening was wrong.
Hope also worked really close with the BNZ to make sure that I wasn't getting charged any late payment penalties and things like that.
In terms of his debt, until I was able to take over the debt, yeah, there was a lot of debt collectors that she actually got my name completely removed off. There was one banking institution in particular that was absolutely vile. They were quite threatening to me. They were really quite horrible to Hope as well. But she put the pressure on them so much that they actually removed my name as a guarantor off one of his loans.
Just instrumental, she just went after every single person that was going after me and made it very clear that that wasn't my debt and that they needed to leave me alone. And it was just having someone to be able to battle for you because you lose the energy to keep retelling the story. And when you're getting phone calls every second, third day from, well, he's your husband, he's your ex-husband. You were a director of the company at the time. You owe us this. And you're trying to explain and they can be quite savage and understandably. I mean, the debt collectors, right? They're not. And everybody's got a sob story, don't they, when they can't pay their bills. And, you know, some of them were quite brutal. But Hope just took it all.
And she just took it all away and allowed me to focus on sorting out the mortgages with the bank, sorting out moving forward in terms of my financial future and how I'm going to get out of this rather than getting so caught up in God, I've got somebody else chasing me for money, or they calling me a liar saying I'm hiding him, or yeah, they’re- some of those debt collectors are quite brutal when they're looking for their money.
Mick (VO): Here's Beryl from Good Shepherd again, and I've just asked her how it is that victims of economic abuse often don't know that's what they're experiencing.
Beryl: So, you know, when you think of the word abuse or violence and then you think of money, those things kind of don't naturally associate. So when people come to us and say, okay, well, I've come out of a family violence relationship, I've found all this debt that wasn't mine.
And we'll kind of say to them, okay, so, were you involved in that debt? Do you know about it? Did you sign for it? You know, in Family Violence there is what's called economic abuse. And that's where the money is kind of controlled, and those kind of things happen and people are kind of like, wow, that's- it's so great to know, because I just thought I was shit with money or that, you know, I was, I was making it up or going mad or forgot about my debts somehow.
Mick: And why would someone kind of sign over control of the family finances to someone else?
Beryl: I don't think the idea in the first place is signing over control. I think it is sure the partner is looking after it. You know, when you go into a relationship, it's a partnership and you imagine that you're still going to be involved and it's still going to be part of it.
But, you know, maybe your partner is is managing the money. And that's fine. But when you want to go and ask about it or say, I'm just going to buy this, or can we do this or I need some more money for that, and you kind of get a ‘no’ or conditions applied or physical violence starts occurring or other things, that's not kind of what you signed up for.
Mick: And for someone who is in a relationship and they're thinking…hold on, like I've got no access to the bank accounts, or I don't know which direction money is flowing in, and we've got these loans, and I just don't know the details about them. And yet I'm just as much part of this relationship as the other person. What's, what's a first step for someone like that?
Beryl: Because violence might be happening as well, there is a risk associated with stepping in and making some severe changes or anything. So what we often suggest is if there's been family violence that maybe talk to a family violence organisation first and kind of say, look, this is what I'm noticing, this is what I want to do, you know, what do I need to think about around my own safety? Other people will, depending on what's occurring for them, they might just reach out to their bank and say ‘so I don't seem to have access to my own money’. They might want to set up their own bank account, there might be some things the bank can do, but throughout all of those things, there’s always a consideration of safety because things can escalate really quickly.
Mick: So who might be the first person to talk to?
Beryl: So depending on what your situation is, we we would suggest that you reach out to Good Shepherd. You know, we work in this space and we can give you a bit of guidance on where you might go, whether it be family violence service, whether it might be the bank, whether you just give the creditor a call and explain what's happening.
We can kind of help unpick that stuff and work through the different pieces and, look at kind of what your priorities might be.
Mick: So if someone gives you a call and they're experiencing economic abuse, what are some really practical ways that you are able to help them out with their with their day to day finances?
Beryl: Some of it is just kind of unpicking the- what's been going on for them. So, you know, if they've got specific banking issues, we'll have a chat through that and we can connect them with their bank. With the hardship teams, who we work closely with. If they've got a particular issue with Work and Income, we have some people there that we can talk to. If they've got an issue with creditors, we can reach out to them.
It's just kind of working out who all the- the moving parts are, I guess, and reaching out to the right services and places to try and address those things as needed.
Mick: And if you are to reach out to, say, creditors, what might be the result of that?
Beryl: So we have all sorts of results that come back from creditors when we reach out to them.
It kind of depends on how the debt came about, around the affordability testing in the first place, whether it was coerced or whether one person's just stopped paying. But we have a range of responses. Sometimes they will waive the debt, other times they might sever liability, they might, reduce it by half and chase up the, the ex-partner for that- the other half, set up payment plans, put a freeze on interest, remove interest, take off fees. You know, there's a whole, there's a whole range of responses.
Mick: And what's it like for someone who comes and engages your services and is as swamped with debt, is totally overwhelmed by it, is stressed, as anxious, feels like no one's there alongside them to help them out, and then you start ringing people. You start managing that debt. You start minimising that debt. You start stepping in for them, advocating for them. What's it like for them when you do that?
Beryl: Pretty exciting, I think. A lot of people are kind of like, I didn't even know that there was a service that does. I'm so grateful. I can't believe that they actually listen to you.
I've tried to approach them. I didn't have any luck. Why did they wipe it? I don't understand, I wasn't asking for that. I just wanted to, you know, do something that's fair. And so, we get really, really great responses from people. And even if we don't maybe get the debt wiped or, have a drastic change, just the fact that they've been able to talk to somebody, connect with that creditor and actually have it considered and have their voice heard.
Mick: And after that, burden, you know, has at least partially been lifted for them, what- how do they report to you about how that feels?
Beryl: They say they are grateful, that they feel hopeful again, that they didn't know that economic abuse was a thing, and now they feel relieved to know that they weren't dumb or stupid. They're just grateful to be heard and so thankful for what that service is able to do for them.
Mick (VO): As one of the hundreds of people Good Shepherd help every year, Nadia was very clear with me that she couldn't have got through it without them.
Nadia: Honestly, it was…it honestly saved my life. Like it honestly say my life. It was, yeah, it was pretty dark and, you know, and it was- it was so hard because every morning you gotta get up.
You can't just curl up in a ball and disappear. You've got four kids that are looking to you and they don't know where their father is. And everything's just changed in a blink of an eye. And you’ve got to work. You've got to have conference meetings, business calls, and you've got to put that mask on constantly that you're okay.
Yeah. And have someone come in that just said, you know, I've got you. You're going to get through this. And then even once it's all sorted, like Hope still checks in with me now and she's…and to be able to share that I'm free, I've gotten out. You know I've done it. I've sold the house. I've purchased my own house.
My debt is at a very manageable level now, and I've got out. But I wouldn't have been able to do that without Hope and without the lovely ladies I deal with in the BNZ that have literally gone and have cheered me on the whole way. Even my bank manager said that she used to lose sleep at night, knowing that there was a single mother with four kids that had $1 million worth of debt.
She said I don't know how on earth you did it. And looking back, I don't really know how I did it. You know, Hope was like…oh, she's just- she was like my beacon of hope. Yeah. She couldn't have a more fitting name, to be honest. Absolutely incredible. I know that, at our dinner table, her name has come up an awful lot on- on how much she did for me and my and my kids and my dad as well.
Mick: That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, thank goodness for people like that in the world and organisations like that in the world.
Nadia: Hugely. And people just don't realize that the supports out- I mean, I didn't know that there was other people that were going through similar things. And it's embarrassing. You know, I know I'm a smart lady. It's embarrassing that I put my head in the sand for so many years, you know, because I did play a part in allowing that to happen to the extent that it happened, because I just thought, no it will be fine, even though I knew inside that, I mean, I look back now and there's just no way, like, if I'd had the information that I have now, I would have been calling up those financial institutions and telling them that why is my name not, you know, this is not my signature. And you come and take this stuff back and this loan is null and void and- and fighting for my financial freedom, rather than just kind of taking a step back and thinking, well, this won't affect me and not having the knowledge to think, actually, it can absolutely destroy you.
If- if I wasn't in a position where I had a career, I don't know what my life would look like right now. And I know there's women out there that that's what's happened to them. They have become mothers and they have given up that, and they're lumped with all this debt, and they've got no way out. There's nothing for them.
That's them for the rest of their lives, struggling for the rest of their lives. And yeah, it's it's sad. Now that I've opened up about it, it's quite surprising how often it happens.
Mick: As Nadia says, economic abuse is more common than most of us think. With all the people that Beryl and the Good Shepherd team have come alongside, I asked her if there were any stories that had a particular impact on her.
Beryl: I have so many stories that impact me, but one I remember quite well. We have worked with a client recently who's been in and out of violent relationships, had a protection order, her partner’s been to prison a number of times, and every time he comes out, even though she might have been moved by the Refuge and Police, he finds her and he comes and he smashes property, damages her car. And she's had, I mean, 3 or 4 cars because of him.
And the last one, he smashed it while she was in it, and she ended with a head injury.
Mick: And how were you able to help her?
Beryl: So when she came to us with her last vehicle, she had purchased it, but got herself in a position where she was really struggling with finance and we rang the finance company.
They wiped the remaining debt on the vehicle, took the vehicle back and we were able to support her with one of our Good Shepherd loans to look at another car.
Mick: How was that for her? When she received that help from you guys?
Beryl: She was absolutely blown away. There was lots of tears. And I remember her kids were really happy that finally they've got a car again. But yeah, it was quite, an emotional journey for her.
Mick: That's great. What are some more indirect forms of economic abuse that we might not immediately think of?
Beryl: So I think some of the indirect ones would be kind of the controlling of the resources and things. So, you know for example, what you wear and what you don't wear in a relationship being dictated by, by your partner, being able to have access to the car to get places, have your partner harass you at work so that you feel like you have to give up your job, want to go and study but not be allowed to.
Mick: So just to be clear, what you just described, that list, they are all forms of economic abuse.
Beryl: Absolutely. Yeah.
Nadia: It strips your independence completely away from you. It traps you in relationships that you can't get out of. It takes all of your independence and it has lasting effects that…it's just so embarrassing. It is the most embarrassing thing, you're asking your friends for hand-me-downs, clothes for kids, and you're shopping with the calculator and you really, really scrimping through and you can't get out.
And it's, yeah it’s really really embarrassing. And it was embarrassing to admit to people, too. And I think that's why I put up with it for so long, because I didn't want to tell my family, because from the outside they were like, well, you business looks like it's really successful. And I'm thinking, I don't know how I'm going to feed the kids next week, and I'm using my food money to pay one of my drivers because there's no money.
Mick: What does it do to your dignity?
Nadia: It was horrible. It was absolutely horrible. You, all your self-esteem, everything just goes out the window. You know? And it does. It makes you feel stupid and incredibly vulnerable when it comes to money. And it does. It has lasting effects now.
Mick: What are your interactions with your ex-husband like these days?
Nadia: Oh, very limited, I can tell you that. Very limited. We communicate on access to the children, and that's really about it.
Mick: And now that you…are you debt free now?
Nadia: No. Nearly very close. Yeah. It's like it's only little. It's very manageable. Yeah.
Mick: Okay. Now that you’re nearly debt-free, what’s life like for you?
Nadia: Oh, it’s amazing. It's so good. It's absolutely amazing. It's incredible. The relief of- it was even on the weekend I was out with my girls and, they wanted some clothes and just being able to go, okay, we'll go in here and buy some clothes. And just before Christmas, I did my food shopping without a calculator for the first time in years.
And I'm really proud of myself that I managed to get through this. Yeah, like I said my- even my bank manager, she just said that she popped open a bottle of bubbles as soon as kind of I sold and I bought because she can see my debt levels just dropping right off. And she said it was one of the best moments of her career, was seeing that it's gone.
Yeah. If it wasn't for Good Shepherd and the BNZ coming in when they did and picking it up because again, I didn't think- I mean, I knew it was wrong, but I didn't realise it was actually a form of abuse. As I've looked back now, you can definitely see how it was being used as a control mechanism.
Trying to force my hand to sell the house and that controlling aspect of that he couldn't hurt me anymore, but if he didn't pay the mortgage or he didn't pay this, then I would cop the brunt of it. Right to the point of now, which was probably one of the happiest days of my life, because child support- you can imagine child support doesn't really exist.
So I turned around and said, I don't need your money, I don't need child support. And a lot of people have said you should go through IRD, you should get that money off him, you should do that. But for me, the biggest thing for me to turn around and say, I don't need any of your money, I don't need a cent off you to support my children is a big win for me. But yeah, it's liberating being on the other side.
Mick: I bet. And tell me about that dynamic that happens when someone is inflicting economic abuse on someone else. And yet that person, the victim, is unaware of what's going on. How does that work? How can someone be having this done to them and yet be unaware of it?
Nadia: Well, that's quite- it's quite scary how easily a spouse can do that. Obviously, if- if things look good on paper, a lot of times, particularly a lot of times now, everything's signed online. You know, most spouses have access to each other's emails. You have anadotes on your computers that sign for you, particularly in business, if you you're you're just on paper to be a shareholder or to be a director because that's how the business was structured and set up.
You may not know any of that, at all. Unless you are actively speaking with your accountant to see what's on the books and you're actively monitoring payments going out and what business institutions they're going out to. That was the worst thing I did, in my experience, was I stuck my head in the sand when it came to the business, and I didn't know the ins and outs of the kind of debt that we were in. I just didn't know.
Mick: What about for people who would think that ‘oh if I'm keeping track of all this stuff, it's almost like I don't trust my spouse’.
Nadia: I think that's the big thing. That's the big thing when it comes to the financial stuff. Is that, well, what? Don't you trust me? And I think that needs to be abolished. It's not, it's not about trust. It's about ensuring we're working as a team to manage our finances and our debt levels. Because what one person thinks is a wonderful idea, the other person might not think it. And I think I did that for a long time, was that, if I go digging around too much, if I do this too much…I wanted to trust him in the business decisions he was making. I wanted to trust him that he was going to- it was going to be okay, he knew what he was doing.
And the fact is, he didn't. And when it all came crumbling down, it was- I was the one that was liable for it. So, I think particularly when it comes to business is to there is not an element of trust. It's more - we're running this as business owners together and if your name is on that piece of paper, you need to behave like a business owner and not it to be a relationship. So that's where I went wrong. Hugely.
Mick: If someone's listening to this podcast and they're in an abusive relationship, including their partner controlling their access to money, maybe robbing them of financial independence, what would you want to say to them?
Beryl: I'd want to say, firstly, you're not alone. It is a thing. It is, family violence and economic abuse is a significant problem in New Zealand and there is support, please reach out to Good Shepherd or your family violence services. We work very closely with them and the Police and can get a referral pathway in, but there is help available.
Nadia: You're not alone. You're not alone. And reach out to your financial institution, particularly banks. A lot of the banks are really aware that this is a problem now.
Get support. I think in the beginning with me, it was that fear that if I called the bank that they would sell my house, you know, be the big bad bank. And it's not like that, like ask for help, like don't do what I did and just kind of disappear into the blackness and not know what to do.
Reach out for help, like talk to your financial institutions, explain to them what is going on. You're not alone. There are so many people that go through this. It's not embarrassing to let your bank know. They have so much support. They have specific people in these areas that are trained to deal with things like this. They can also offer you bank holidays and they're there to help you.
They will work with you. They will help you re-budget. Don't do what I did and stop buying things for your children and buying food and struggling through like that because you're so concerned about you have to pay your mortgage or they’re going to come and take your house away. Reach out for help. You know, there's people like Good Shepherd and your banking institutions that will help you and they will hear you.
Mick: And, Beryl, why do you- why do you do what you do?
Beryl: I have been working in family violence for 15 years. Kind of fell into the role, I guess, and very passionate about working and supporting people in this place. It's been something that I have dealt with in my life, family, friends and in different ways. So it really, fills my bucket, I guess.
Mick: What is it that fills your bucket?
Beryl: Being able to support people to navigate some of the challenging aspects of this and actually just to move forward in their life, you know, being able to secure housing, being able to put food on the table, being able to have power to my property, not being left with so much debt that it's just easier to sit in the corner and hide behind the curtain than deal with it.
Mick: Just basic human rights, isn't it?
Beryl: Absolutely.
Mick: And what are the moments in your job that make you think, yeah I'm glad I'm doing this.
Beryl: Right from the start, the fact that people are picking up the phone and talking to us, sometimes it's all that's needed to just know that there's a service there and pick up and call us, and I hear so many stories, and I'm just so pleased that people reach out, because that can be a really hard thing to do when you're going through this. You think, oh, no, I'm not one of those people that needs social services. But when they reach out and to just see that, we can try and unpick things and move them forward.
Often people think that people who've gone through family violence are somehow maybe not that great with money or maybe need to grow some skills or something, but most of the time they just, they haven't had access. They're very smart people. Many of them are very, have very good incomes, very well employed, have a status in the community. They've just found themselves in this place.
Mick: What would you say to someone who blames themselves or thinks they're stupid for allowing this to happen?
Nadia: Oh, you're not. I’m learning that now. It's taking a while because that was the one thing that, you know, that I was stupid and I shouldn't have got myself into this position, I should have done this.
But it's not. And the more that you get assistance and you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel and you become financially free, you realise again how actually quite savvy you are, and you’ll get that confidence back. But it's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's definitely something that happened to you. But it's also not your story and you can get out of it.
Mick (VO): I'd like to say a big thank you to Nadia for sharing so vulnerably with me, and to Beryl, not only for telling us about Good Shepherd, but also for all the work her and the team do every day for survivors of economic abuse. Ngā mihi, kōrua.
If this episode has brought anything out for you and you want some support, you can go to areyouok.org.nz or call the 24/7 Are You OK Helpline on 0800 456 450 to speak anonymously to a safe person. That’s 0800 456 450.
To get in touch with Good Shepherd, the organisation that helped Nadia, their website is goodshepherd.org.nz or phone 0800 466 370.
And I just want to mention that Nadia's story is her own unique experience. Economic abuse impacts people in many different ways, and the path to getting support and finding healing can be different for everyone too. I really hope you found some encouragement and maybe even some guidance from Nadia and Beryl’s stories today.
If you found this useful, do have a listen to one of the other episodes in this Insider's Guide series, and I'll see you there. Ka kite anō.
PG
Description
Experiencing family violence or partner violence can leave us feeling isolated and alone. It can mess with our minds and even make us feel crazy. We often blame ourselves for what's happening, and it can make us feel like there's nowhere to turn. Throughout this series, you'll hear firsthand stories of people who have experienced family violence. And the reason these courageous people are sharing these stories is because they want people who are experiencing family violence to know that they are not alone, that they are not crazy, that it's not their fault, and that helpful support is available.When Nadia got married, she didn’t expect her husband to one day cheat on her, skip the country and leave her with over a million dollars’ worth of debt. Debt collectors were threatening to take her house and everything she owned, whilst she was struggling to provide her kids with the basics. Nadia shares openly about what it’s like to bear the heavy burden of someone else’s financial mistakes.
We also talk to Beryl who manages the family violence economic harm service at Good Shepherd New Zealand. Good Shepherd work closely with people experiencing economic abuse, helping them rebuild their lives both financially and emotionally.
** Content Warning: This episode contains descriptions of controlling behaviour, economic abuse and mention of an eating disorder.
To contact Good Shepherd NZ, visit goodshepherd.org.nz.
If you would like support, you can click 'get help now' in the bottom right hand corner of the screen to start a webchat with the Are You OK helpline, or call the helpline on 0800 456 450 to speak anonymously to a safe person.
To contact Women’s Refuge, go to womensrefuge.org.nz or call 0800 456 450.
The Insider’s Guide: surviving economic abuse
Up Next
9 May 2025
The Insider’s Guide: family violence in refugee and migrant communities
Experiencing family violence or partner violence can leave us feeling isolated and alone. It can mess with our minds and even make us feel crazy. We often blame ourselves for what's happening, and it can make us feel like there's nowhere to turn. Throughout this series, you'll hear firsthand stories of people who have experienced family violence. And the reason these courageous people are sharing these stories is because they want people who are experiencing family violence to know that they are not alone, that they are not crazy, that it's not their fault, and that helpful support is available.
Originally from Iran, Samira works tirelessly in violence prevention within ethnic communities in Aotearoa. She gives an eye-opening account of the unique challenges faced by victims of family violence who have moved to New Zealand from other countries. She is passionate about breaking down the barriers that prevent members of our migrant and refugee communities from accessing helpful support.
If you would like support, you can click 'get help now' in the bottom right hand corner of the screen to start a webchat with the Are You OK helpline, or call the helpline on 0800 456 450 to speak anonymously to a safe person.
To contact Women’s Refuge, go to womensrefuge.org.nz or call 0800 456 450.
Originally from Iran, Samira works tirelessly in violence prevention within ethnic communities in Aotearoa. She gives an eye-opening account of the unique challenges faced by victims of family violence who have moved to New Zealand from other countries. She is passionate about breaking down the barriers that prevent members of our migrant and refugee communities from accessing helpful support.
If you would like support, you can click 'get help now' in the bottom right hand corner of the screen to start a webchat with the Are You OK helpline, or call the helpline on 0800 456 450 to speak anonymously to a safe person.
To contact Women’s Refuge, go to womensrefuge.org.nz or call 0800 456 450.
Details & Info
PG
Parental Guidance Recommended for Younger Viewers.